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Permalink Reply by Phill Crane on June 13, 2010 at 10:09am

I also understood that this was a trial to be either voted in or out by the Committee at a future meeting. The reason that people are voting at present is because Mark set up a survey to gather the general opinion of the active site users (and assumed players).
This is currently revealing that
24 people or 32% prefer HiHo
47 people or 61% prefer some version of PAR
5 people or 7% aren't bothered which they play
1 person would like the two serve rule bringing back (CL lol)

I realise that there are lots of players who for one reason or another haven't voted but currently there is a very large groundswell of opinion that favours PAR.
This is currently running at 2 voting for PAR for every 1 voting for HiHo.

I think Mark did the right thing by setting up the survey, this has given the members/players an opportunity to have their voices heard and counted.
There are something like another 90 people who could vote, hopefully they will and this will give a very clear indication of what the players want for themselves.
But the fact that there are approx 90 people who haven't voted could also indicate that they aren't that fussed and just want to play squash whatever the scoring is.

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Permalink Reply by Simon Crowther on June 13, 2010 at 11:24am

probably most people don't know the survey is there. have they been informed?

Phill Crane said:

I also understood that this was a trial to be either voted in or out by the Committee at a future meeting. The reason that people are voting at present is because Mark set up a survey to gather the general opinion of the active site users (and assumed players).
This is currently revealing that
24 people or 32% prefer HiHo
47 people or 61% prefer some version of PAR
5 people or 7% aren't bothered which they play
1 person would like the two serve rule bringing back (CL lol)

I realise that there are lots of players who for one reason or another haven't voted but currently there is a very large groundswell of opinion that favours PAR.
This is currently running at 2 voting for PAR for every 1 voting for HiHo.

I think Mark did the right thing by setting up the survey, this has given the members/players an opportunity to have their voices heard and counted.
There are something like another 90 people who could vote, hopefully they will and this will give a very clear indication of what the players want for themselves.
But the fact that there are approx 90 people who haven't voted could also indicate that they aren't that fussed and just want to play squash whatever the scoring is.

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Permalink Reply by Ian Armstrong on June 14, 2010 at 11:01am

The compromise sounds like a good idea but I would suggest we make it PAR to 15 from division 2 downwards in the summer and it would probably be good to trial PAR 15 this summer at some point.

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Permalink Reply by Jolyon Head on June 14, 2010 at 11:44am

Hello all. As Ken has mentioned when initiating the post we had a good discussion about the PAR debate at the match dinner last week and given that we’ve had a few matches now (plus a few over the winter) I just thought I’d chuck my pennies worth in (again, sorry!).

I’ll set out my stall by saying I think both scoring systems have their merits. If I had to chose one system it would be HiHo, however I also enjoy playing PAR as well (and would like to see it remain a permanent fixture in the summer for Div 1) for the following reasons:

Variety – the different scoring systems change the dynamic of the game a lot more than might be expected. Under PAR every rally has added importance. Short losses in concentration are costly and the intensity of the game picks up much earlier than in HiHo. From quite early in the game rallies are played as if its 8-8 under HiHio. This isn’t necessarily better, but it’s quite enjoyable having two versions of the game to play. Part of the mass appeal of tennis is that it is played on different surfaces which create different styles and favour different players. Now I know this is not an exact parallel but it does mix the old formula up a bit which is fun.

Favouring the underdog – something I have found under PAR is that the underdog has a much better chance of “nicking a game”. I’ve played a few matches where I’ve managed to sneak a game under PAR that I think I would have been unlikely to win under HiHo. I’ve also lost 3-0 under HiHo where under PAR I would have sneaked one. Again one can take a view as to whether this is good, but in a sport where marginal differences can lead to lopsided results and there is no natural leveller (eg the serve in tennis) I think this is a good thing.

Grinding out a comeback – definitely harder under PAR, and something that is obviously enjoyable to achieve and appeals to the squash player psyche. Can’t really defend PAR here except to refer to the variety point. Under PAR the game becomes much more front end loaded, so don’t wait until the last minute to start playing!

Time – no point in arguing with the stats, PAR is quicker. But there are some finer points, some of which have already been made.

(1) Summer squash matches are inherently longer as the ball is more bouncy and can grow to the size of a racquetball! All our matches have been long enough, they would have been longer under HiHo but I think we all got our fill under PAR.

(2) Overlap with favouring the underdog – if a match is less likely to be 3-0 then the additional game will mean it is longer. So comparing 3-1 under PAR with 3-1 under HiHo is comparing apples with oranges. A 3-1 under PAR may well have been a 3-0 under HiHo, and a much more similar length of match.

(3) If you are winning or losing in under 20 minutes each week then the problem probably isn’t the scoring system. Far more likely you are playing at too high / low a position within the league.

PAR 15 – final point. Please don’t lets not go down that route. If people don’t like PAR 11 lets play HiHo. I remember watching pros play PAR 15 and it’s the worst of both systems. Long boring phases of play drawing to an inevitable conclusion. Dull, dull, dull.

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Permalink Reply by Mark Steeden on June 16, 2010 at 8:03am

On another point, currently 106 people have voted in the poll. I thought this was quite high so I tried to vote again, unfortunately it let me vote for the second time so maybe this poll is not an acurate representation of peoples thoughts.

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Permalink Reply by Phill Crane on June 16, 2010 at 9:27am

Glad you brought this up Mark.
I was speaking with someone at the Mote/ Rodmersham match last night. They said that they had been able to vote twice by logging out and back in again. Must admit that I've been concerned that some may have more than one ID.
It would be nice if ML can identify those who have voted twice and correct the current poll.


Mark Steeden said:

On another point, currently 106 people have voted in the poll. I thought this was quite high so I tried to vote again, unfortunately it let me vote for the second time so maybe this poll is not an acurate representation of peoples thoughts.

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Permalink Reply by Ian Armstrong on June 16, 2010 at 11:45am

If ML cannot identify who has voted more than once then the vote should be declared null and void and another method will have to be thunk up!

A better more complete voting mechanism would be to get all of the team captains to canvass their squad members and then forward the results to ML or post them on this website.

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