PAR scoring = less squash

By 25 May 2010 June 13th, 2014 Forum

I’ve read the other topics ion this and I’ve accepted that we’re ‘giving it a go’ for the summer season. After all, what harm can it do to try?

 

Well I’ve just come back from a game that could have lasted an hour but in fact lasted 26 minutes. I can honestly say (with no disrespect to my opponent) that I considered dropping a game so we could get a bit more time on court. How does that sound, right or wrong?

 

This game of squash is my one match per week and one that I’m prepared to travel to – BUT if my time on court is significantly reduced I’m going to veto any moves to continue PAR and will campaign for others to do so too.

 

I know this might seem like old news but now that we’ve tried it (albeit for two weeks) I challenge anyone to come forward and give a sensible reason why you want to shorten down your precious time on court? If you’re a little overweight and always found it a struggle to last the distance then sure I can take that. But why were people like Mark Steedon, Matt Badger and others wanting to go for this when I know first hand that they enjoy a good hard match as much as the next. 

 

There are many silent viewers of this forum but if you agree or disagree, please speak up because your opinion counts

 

I’ll wrap up by saying PAR is great for pros and televised sport but not for us guys in Div 1, we’re not pros (exclude about 4 players from a total of circa 50).

 

Thoughts? 

Posted by Mark Lennox on May 25, 2010 at 23:17

44 Comments

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Jolyon Head on May 26, 2010 at 8:23
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    Have to say I’m fairly indifferent between PAR and HiHo. In my limited experience of playing PAR I haven’t noticed a huge deal of difference in match times. We played Dulwich last night, only had four players, started promptly and didn’t finish until 10 o’clock. Would have been close to an 11 o’clock finish with 5 players. All the matches were long and no one was complaining about lack of match time.

    I’m quite glad it has been introduced for the summer so we can get some experience of it. If it seems that the overall people find it a negative move (and they certainly seem to be the most vocal at the moment) then I see no reason why HiHo shouldn’t be re-introduced.

    Good to see the topics on the forum are progressing 🙂

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mark Lennox on May 26, 2010 at 8:41
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    Hey Jolyon, long time no speak..

    I should add that; I know it’s the same old topic and there are similar posts running but I just wanted to make sure it wasn’t lost in an old discussion. Besides this post is discussing the scoring as we progress on through the season and I’m interested to hear if anyone feels short-changed?

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Joe Magor on May 26, 2010 at 9:19
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    Hey Guys,

    I think that PAR to 11 should perhaps be used in the Summer League and English to 9 in the Winter League.

    Why?

    Well, in the summer when the courts get a lot hotter and it gets a lot harder to put the ball away you will naturally have a lot longer rallies anyway (well in Divsion 1 anyway) so you’d probably not want to be on a hot court for over an hour like you do in Hi-Ho scoring on a hot court (Last summer, I had a 95 minute match against Martin Clark and a 105 minute match against Jonny Powell because of Hi-Ho scoring on a hot court in addition to several other matches that were in excess of an hour).

    I think PAR to 11 is more rewarding on a hot court as you can have a massively long rally and be rewarded with a point at the end of it or hit a nice winner on a court thats difficult to hit a winner on and be rewarded for a point.

    Not too long ago I had a match against Tom Woods on a very hot fitness first court and it stayed 0-0 until the 12th point of the first game!!

    If you put in a lot of effort in your movement and retrieving then you’ll know its not very pleasant trying to grind it out on a very hot court just to win the serve back!!

    I’ve played in several graded tournaments over the last couple of summers and there have been matches using PAR 11 where I’ve come off absoutely ruined after an hour on court or more because of the length of the rallies on the hot courts and the fact that its harder to go for winners! To be honest if they were Hi-Ho scoring I might have either not played or entered a lower grade 😉

    Whilst its only been two weeks, the temeprature hasn’t got to what it does in summer usually, so I say give it several more weeks, wait for the temperature to creep up and see what difference that makes!

    Also, I think for the likes of budding pros such as james evans,. josh masters etc.. and new PSA pros Neil Baker and Steve London it would help them if they are playing team matches using the same scoring as they would in tournaments albeit they only make up a minority of the league but I suppose for the summer only is better than nothing!

    Then once its back to a nicer temperature on court where you can actually put the ball away and your grip doesn’t get soacked after 25 mins then back to Hi-Ho! That’s my thoughts anway!

    Here’s to a hot summer!

    Thanks,

    Joe

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Phill Crane on May 27, 2010 at 8:39
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    164 members, a handfull bothering to comment – although I’m in favour the vast majority apparently couldn’t care less and are just getting on with it.
    Maybe team captains should do a weekly survey and ask the players whether they enjoyed their match or not? The result could then be posted within the match report.

    It’s certainly time it was given a trial and it’s not all about the players higher up the order. At our match the other evening against BCC the longest match on court was the 5th string which lasted maybe 45/ 50 mins for 4 games (equivalent 1st or 2nd string Div 2 or 3 Outer Kent and 1st or 2nd string Div 3 or 4 Priory).
    If players are well matched you’ll get long games whichever scoring system you use.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mark Lennox on May 27, 2010 at 8:54
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    I know there are a lot of silent forum viewers and hopefully we’ll spark them into commenting, even if it’s 1 liner!

    I do take Joe’s point about the summer naturally making any game of squash longer which is a compensation for the inevitably shorter games due to the PAR scoring. I still would want the longer games in the summer in any case because, well, I like a decent length game of squash. But maybe that’s just me?

    Taking up Phil’s point about evenly matched players having a longer game, well yes that’s true although it’s still not as long as it would be if it were HiHo scoring. I guess the question we should be asking is do we want shorter games of squash?

    Lastly, I don’t buy all this ‘change your game’ ‘play defensively’ rubbish to make it last longer. Surely the game of squash should be exciting to watch and not be encouraging players to drill ball after ball down the wall because they are scared of making a mistake. If you don’t want HiHo then play PAR to 15 – problem solved. 11 is too short for us but ideal for the pros as we know..

    Phill Crane said:
    164 members, a handfull bothering to comment – although I’m in favour the vast majority apparently couldn’t care less and are just getting on with it.
    Maybe team captains should do a weekly survey and ask the players whether they enjoyed their match or not? The result could then be posted within the match report.

    It’s certainly time it was given a trial and it’s not all about the players higher up the order. At our match the other evening against BCC the longest match on court was the 5th string which lasted maybe 45/ 50 mins for 4 games (equivalent 1st or 2nd string Div 2 or 3 Outer Kent and 1st or 2nd string Div 3 or 4 Priory).
    If players are well matched you’ll get long games whichever you use.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Clive London on May 27, 2010 at 11:37
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    I thought the whole idea of introducing PAR 11 scoring for the pros was to make the game more attacking not less! Back in the day, pro matches used to be up and down for hour on end. Club level squash never really gave the opportunity for that since at that level not every shot is (a) glued to the wall and (b) returned every time wherever it goes.

    In addition they have the 17″ tin. Maybe the next move is to lower the tin then!?

    P.S. Phill – Nice Bono impersonation in the photo. Perhaps you should stand in at Glastonbury

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Tom Woods on May 27, 2010 at 12:39
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    After a couple of matches with the PAR 11, I don’t think it is improving matches either and surely thats the only reason to change so that we all enjoy it even more.

    I agree that two closely matched players will be on longer, but when I look at the Hi Ho score of this weeks match, where I could have carried on playing for another half hour at least, (and as you all know I am not the fittest player) in which I lost the fifth 11-8 . It turns out I was only 5-2 behind on Hi Ho.

    I do feel a little cheated to be honest, not only have I not played what I would class as a full game, I have also lost the match on a rally where I served.

    I do think that it’s good there are a few comments on the forum again though, opinions are important or it would be a pretty boring place.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Phill Crane on May 27, 2010 at 14:04
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    Clive, I too remember the ‘Old Days’ though obviously not quite as far back as you.
    But yes, I like PAR because it allows you to attack and if successful reap the rewards.
    You don’t have to defend and be attritional when your opponent is serving, you can think of winning the point instead of not losing it.
    It allows you to go for it, as Tom does whether playing PAR or HIHO – ( I’ve never seen him try and extend a rally if he can end it with one shot – lol).
    And yes, please give me a lower tin!

    Everyone should sit back, relax and enjoy it for what it is – a game and hopefully some fun. If there are major problems/ concerns then I’m sure that everyone will make sure that the Priory Committee is well aware.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Simon Crowther on May 27, 2010 at 14:08
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    I think PAR 15 is the way forward – summer and winter, it works for all levels of league players, has a slant towards more exciting games and imposes a bit of a limit on match times. It also doesn’t favour shotmakers so much, so is fairer for those who like a bit of attrition.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Joe Magor on May 27, 2010 at 14:39
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    I like PAR 15 as it makes it longer and still rewards you for winners and punishes you for being lazy and trying to go for a winner off the serve!

    Pro’s played with it for years and only shortened it to 11 as their rallies lasted a lot longer than ours do! so maybe 15 might be the best of both worlds where it makes the game longer and it still includes the element of PAR.

    The old super league used it and everyone played to it, even park langley, new eltham and biggin hill, with no complaints!? or were there? if so I don’t recall hearing about them!

    good shout simon, free beer for you!

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Clive London on May 27, 2010 at 15:02
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    I used to run that PL Super League team and I hated PAR back then too. In those days there were quite a lot of pros playing so maybe that’s why the scoring system was used. James Robbins would be no.3 for D.Lloyd Sidcup (and he was still national top 30 then). PAR 15 is the lesser of the two PAR evils in my view, but as far as I’m concerned it’s Snow White mode all the way – Hi-Ho Hi-Ho etc

    Joe Magor said:
    I like PAR 15 as it makes it longer and still rewards you for winners and punishes you for being lazy and trying to go for a winner off the serve!

    Pro’s played with it for years and only shortened it to 11 as their rallies lasted a lot longer than ours do! so maybe 15 might be the best of both worlds where it makes the game longer and it still includes the element of PAR.

    The old super league used it and everyone played to it, even park langley, new eltham and biggin hill, with no complaints!? or were there? if so I don’t recall hearing about them!

    good shout simon, free beer for you!

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Neil Fisher on May 27, 2010 at 16:10
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    Haven’t posted on here before but think that as many different views as possible can only be a good thing. Haven’t played as much, and certainly not to as high a standard as anyone else posting on here (div 3/4 priory mainly), but do think that it would be good to get a few views from lower down in the leagues.
    Haven’t played much PAR (only in Handicaps) but have watched my son in junior tournaments a fair amount and also some adult gradeds, and agree that it does, inevitably, shorten the game time.
    I like the competitive nature of match squash but don’t really mind whether I lurch (after a quick match) or crawl off court depending on the length of the match, as long as it is competitve and preferably close.
    With the times that people seem to turn up for matches nowadays, they often don’t finish until after 10 and this is far more likely to see me packing in team squash than getting 10 minutes less court time, since I enjoy the social side as much as the squash nowadays (most who know me would argue more!).
    My own personal preference would be for PAR 15, rather than PAR 11 or HiHo, as it seems to offer the best of both worlds, longer games than PAR 11 and earlier overall finishes. Shame the trial only emcompasses Div 1 in my opinion, especially in summer as others have stated, but hopefully the trial will encourage debate throughout the leagues.
    Think, generally, that people playing further down in the leagues, are of the opinion that this won’t affect them or that their arguments for change will not be listened to, however this will always be the case if no-one knows what they think, because they don’t feel they should post!

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Phil Hoyland on May 27, 2010 at 17:53
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    Totally agree with your opening comments Mark, PAR for the pros and hiho for us mere mortals, Div 1 outer kent plays well to hiho (providing teams turn up on time) so why change it now, and I presume from 99.9% of peoples comments that goes for div 1 in the priory as well. “If it aint broke don’t fix it” seems an appropriate phrase.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Tom Woods on May 27, 2010 at 20:30
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    I agree, teams turn up very late sometimes. I know it can’t be helped all the time, but we have had to wait until after 8 for a 7:20 start against Maidstone in the past, and it 15 minutes away from us.

    I think Hi Ho but turn up on time is the best option, on almost all away matches in the OK and Priory, we are there before most of the opposition, surely thats not right.

    Phil Hoyland said:
    Totally agree with your opening comments Mark, PAR for the pros and hiho for us mere mortals, Div 1 outer kent plays well to hiho (providing teams turn up on time) so why change it now, and I presume from 99.9% of peoples comments that goes for div 1 in the priory as well. “If it aint broke don’t fix it” seems an appropriate phrase.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Duane Harrison on May 28, 2010 at 12:23
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    Hi Mark.

    At the side of each topic there is a total amount of replies. Is it possible to add the total number of views to see how many silent viewers there are?!

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Ian Armstrong on May 31, 2010 at 14:17
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    The solution is simple – SAWSS – Server And Winning Shot Scores

    Same as the tried and trusted Hi-Ho / SOS (Server Only Scores) but you also win a point when you play a winning shot irrespective of who served.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Jolyon Head on May 31, 2010 at 21:29
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    Please define a winning shot.

    Ian Armstrong said:
    The solution is simple – SAWSS – Server And Winning Shot Scores Same as the tried and trusted Hi-Ho / SOS (Server Only Scores) but you also win a point when you play a winning shot irrespective of who served.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mark Lennox on June 1, 2010 at 7:11
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    Hi Duane, I’m looking into a couple of solutions to see how many are actually viewing this but there’s nothing that’s jumping out at me. I’ll keep you posted.

    Ian, I agree with Jolyon – how do you determine a winning shot – sounds a bit confusing?

    Finally, I’m going to add a poll which should do a pretty good job of opinion canvassing…

    Lastly, I’m leaving work tonight early so I can get to Dulwich. I appreciate my oponent might make light work of me but I’m hoping to get more that 15 minutes for my travels and troubles…we’ll see…

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Ian Armstrong on June 1, 2010 at 10:55
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    SAWSS – the definition of a winning shot could be one where the opponent fails to get their racket to the ball before the ball is deemed dead.

    I think it would be an interesting change and would amount to a half way house between PAR and HiHo as you would not be penalised for going for your shots when you are serving but would be rewarded for a good shot irrespective of whether you were serving or not.

    Also a stroke would be an automatic point.

    It would be interesting to see if some of the stato’s could work out what the scores would be under SAWSS to compare it with the PAR and HiHo score.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Jolyon Head on June 1, 2010 at 11:57
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    Ian

    The main complaint against PAR is that it shortens games but your proposal would incentivise players to go for winners with reckless abandon as a player can now significantly increase their error count but still win.

    Also it seems unfair to reward only your definition of a winning shot. The nature of the game of squash is such that you are often rewarded in the present for what has happened in the past. If my opponent runs me ragged for an hour and then I make a load of mistakes in a couple of minutes, the mistakes might appear to the inexperienced observer to be unforced errors, but are actually a result of fatigue from the previous running / pressure. Also what about all the other types of winning shots where a player can place their racquet on the ball but cannot return it (eg glued to side wall). Are these not as good?

    Finally can you imagine marking under the SAWASS system?

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Ian Armstrong on June 1, 2010 at 13:33
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    I think SAWSS would shorten the game a little but not too much. It would facilitate come backs so long as you could prevent your opponent from playing a winning shot.

    I would have thought that an incentive for players to go for winners would be a good thing. Also when you serve in HiHo you have the same incentive to go for a winner.

    The winning shot definition seems to me to be the simplest way to define a winning shot for the purposes of SAWSS.

    If you have your opponent run ragged then no doubt you would be able to win a few rallys in succession and hence increase your points total.

    With regard to balls tight on the wall just think what happens if the opponent is too close to you and you ask for a let?
    – you are unlikely to be refused a let just because the ball is tight on the wall
    – you are unlikely to get a stroke unless the player is in front of you although you may have got a stroke if the ball was off the wall

    Thus it is not possibly to declare a tight on the wall ball a winning shot until you have seen how the player deals with it.

    Marking is fun I think and this would make it a bit more fun but in truth with my definition of a winning shot it would be easy to determine if a point has been won or not. If you thought the tight on the wall ball was an exception then I dare say it would still be easy to declare it a winning shot one way or the other once you had seen how the player dealt with the situation.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mark Lennox on June 2, 2010 at 12:16
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    The poll is up and running with about 20 or so votes so far, looks ike HiHo’s coming back!!??

    You can view the poll on the home page of this site (scroll about half way down).

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Phill Crane on June 2, 2010 at 12:32
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    Just a little bit of spin there Mark.
    The split is currently 60 – 40
    With only 40% voting for HiHo

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mark Lennox on June 2, 2010 at 12:49
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    Not correct Phil.

    As I type the resuts are 19 votes:

    7 votes for HiHO
    6 Votes for PAR 15 as an alternative
    3 votes for ‘not caring either way’
    3 Votes for keeping PAR 11

    Can’t see any spin there, just facts.. 😉

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Phill Crane on June 2, 2010 at 13:06
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    Sorry I’m wrong just under 37% have voted to stick with HiHo ;>)

    Or put another way slightly over a third ;>)

    Mark Lennox said:
    Not correct Phil.

    As I type the resuts are 19 votes:

    7 votes for HiHO
    6 Votes for PAR 15 as an alternative
    3 votes for ‘not caring either way’
    3 Votes for keeping PAR 11

    Can’t see any spin there, just facts.. 😉

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mark Lennox on June 2, 2010 at 13:37
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    Compared to just 15% of the votes wanting to keep PAR 11

    Or you could also say that HiHo has over twice the amount of votes than PAR 11.

    Either way, I think it shows that after a trial period, people are not happy about their valuable court time being cut down.

    Here’s a quick quiz question for you and others…

    If you were using squash as a way of keeping fit, at what stage of a squash match would you say you gain the most amount of fitness benefit?

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Phill Crane on June 2, 2010 at 13:51
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    If you are using squash to keep fit then you could be making a big mistake – especially as you get older.
    The stresses and strains it puts your body and heart under are tremendous.

    The old saying of “get fit to play squash and don’t play squash to get fit” is as true today as it’s ever been.

    p.s. How about a straight PAR v HiHo rather than watering down the PAR vote into different categories.

    Mark Lennox said:
    Compared to just 15% of the votes wanting to keep PAR 11

    Or you could also say that HiHo has over twice the amount of votes than PAR 11.

    Either way, I think it shows that after a trial period, people are not happy about their valuable court time being cut down.

    Here’s a quick quiz question for you and others…

    If you were using squash as a way of keeping fit, at what stage of a squash match would you say you gain the most amount of fitness benefit?

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Ian Armstrong on June 4, 2010 at 11:37
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    Is there a way to email all members of this forum to inform them of the vote?

    The way the voting is going at present it seems that some do like PAR 11 but a lot more would prefer PAR 15 and together about twice as many would prefer some form of PAR compared to HiHo

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by martin clark on June 4, 2010 at 12:58
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    If the whole world of squash is changing to par then surely we should follow suit as I can’t think of any other sport where the pros play a different scoring system to the amateurs, if the sport is changing then we should change with it. Just like football changing rules like offside. It is trying a different way of playing in accordance to the rules, so I am all for it. I am all for par because it makes you more aware of mistakes cost u matches, more harsh which is better to me because eventually it will make you make fewer mistakes! PAR all the way

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mark Lennox on June 7, 2010 at 21:21
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    Martin, the PRO game is a very different game – do we all play with 17″ tins too? No.

    Lets not be sheep and just go along with this, this is our time on court and we [well I for one, of many] am not prepared to just let this go. I’m ok with PAR 15 because that compensates but 11 is too short.

    If this is rolled out to Div 2,3,4 & 5, believe me you’d have a mutiny!

    martin clark said:
    If the whole world of squash is changing to par then surely we should follow suit as I can’t think of any other sport where the pros play a different scoring system to the amateurs, if the sport is changing then we should change with it. Just like football changing rules like offside. It is trying a different way of playing in accordance to the rules, so I am all for it. I am all for par because it makes you more aware of mistakes cost u matches, more harsh which is better to me because eventually it will make you make fewer mistakes! PAR all the way

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Paul Adam on June 8, 2010 at 9:27
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    Completely agree with your comments, Mark! PAR to 11 is ridiculous at this level and (in my opinion) completely ruins the game.

    Mark Lennox said:
    Martin, the PRO game is a very different game – do we all play with 17″ tins too? No.

    Lets not be sheep and just go along with this, this is our time on court and we [well I for one, of many] am not prepared to just let this go. I’m ok with PAR 15 because that compensates but 11 is too short.

    If this is rolled out to Div 2,3,4 & 5, believe me you’d have a mutiny!

    martin clark said:
    If the whole world of squash is changing to par then surely we should follow suit as I can’t think of any other sport where the pros play a different scoring system to the amateurs, if the sport is changing then we should change with it. Just like football changing rules like offside. It is trying a different way of playing in accordance to the rules, so I am all for it. I am all for par because it makes you more aware of mistakes cost u matches, more harsh which is better to me because eventually it will make you make fewer mistakes! PAR all the way

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mat Kendall on June 8, 2010 at 10:13
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    So why are we not just sensibly playing par squash to 15?

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mark Lennox on June 8, 2010 at 10:38
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    As I understand it, division 1 is trialling PAR 11 for the Summer period because it was voted IN at the AGM fair and square.

    I believe it was done on the proviso that everyone involved would feedback and a decision would be taken at the end of the Summer (or just as soon as it became apparent that it was a success or not).

    Clearly people have mixed views and are still making their minds up. And yes, it’s emerging that PAR 15 might be the happy medium that pleases the majority of league players. We’ll see.

    I personally have made my views clear about PAR 11 being too short and I do question the rationale of those that are so PRO (clue) PAR 11. To say that ‘this is the scoring and we now have to get on with it’ when it has such a negative impact for many is not a good enough reason (for me anyway).

    They changed the scoring in Badminton and it had such a bad reaction, they had to change it back again – and in fact increased the points from 11 to 21. This happened because people made their views known.

    Anyway, I think I’ve made my own point abundantly clear and promise to start more discussions on this forum which will hopefully be anything other than PAR scoring 😉

    Mat Kendall said:
    So why are we not just sensibly playing par squash to 15?

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by David Rannard on June 9, 2010 at 9:36
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    I had my first experience of the PAR 11 scoring in a priory match last night. I’m with the majority and am not keen. It was all over far too quickly for my liking and as I heard the opposition say at one point during a match… “I’ve travelled all this way for this to be over so quickly!” It has to be PAR 15 or the good old scoring system to 9 IMHO.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Jack Breen on June 10, 2010 at 11:44
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    Afternoon all.

    I am in favour of PAR to 11 scoring. I see it like this; If proffesional squash is played using PAR – 11 then surley “”division 1″” should follow it. I can understand frustrations with people and games being over to quickly but surley if your getting beat in a stupid time limit then some questions need to be asked. Are you in the right division? Is your nomination correct? Do you need to be on the court more than once a week? Of course there is going to be the odd game where someone is too strong for someone.

    If someone beats you in 20-25 mins using PAR to 11 using IMHO is only going to give you another 5-10mins on court at most?

    All 3 of my matches have been close to the hour mark. Not sure whether the warm courts have anything to do with that but i think we should def take this scoring method into Winter League. When i am playing friendlys i always now use PAR to 11.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mark Lennox on June 10, 2010 at 12:24
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    Sorry Jack, I couldn’t disagree more.

    1) That extra 5 or 10 minutes is the time at the end of the game that does the most for your fitness – cutting it shorter means you never reach that high anabolic rate (or whatever it’s called). Also, how many times have you heard people say, i was just starting to get into that when… well this would be happening a heck of a lot more

    2) There are always going to be slight miss-matches such as when the top team plays the bottom or indeed when any stronger team players a weaker team – and that doesn’t include the occasional nomination that might be slightly out of sync. Would you be happy trekking down to Rodmersham and getting a 15 minute bashing – I’d rather get a 20 or 25 minute game thanks!

    Whilst I appreciate that quite a few teams in Div 1 have pro at no.1, you cannot compare Div 1 to the professional game where tins are lower, players are full time pros and lets face it these guys know how to make a rally last forever. I would concede that it’s more so the guys at position 2,3,4 and 5 that miss out the most.

    The pros at No.1 are the only ones who don’t miss out. Think about it. They get to play what they are used to on the professional tour. Playing a shorter game means they stand less chance of getting an injury or being knackered for another paid match the next day. It also means they get back home earlier meaning again more rest for the next day’s matches, coaching or whatever. The last time I checked pros get paid per match not per time on court – it’s therefore no surprise the clubs that ‘tend’ to champion this ruling have retained pros (Dulwich, Bexley etc). I don’t blame them but I do think we should all be aware and make sure it doesn’t affect those of us who were perfectly happy before.

    Just my observations…

    Jack Breen said:
    Afternoon all.

    I am in favour of PAR to 11 scoring. I see it like this; If proffesional squash is played using PAR – 11 then surley “”division 1″” should follow it. I can understand frustrations with people and games being over to quickly but surley if your getting beat in a stupid time limit then some questions need to be asked. Are you in the right division? Is your nomination correct? Do you need to be on the court more than once a week? Of course there is going to be the odd game where someone is too strong for someone.

    If someone beats you in 20-25 mins using PAR to 11 using IMHO is only going to give you another 5-10mins on court at most?

    All 3 of my matches have been close to the hour mark. Not sure whether the warm courts have anything to do with that but i think we should def take this scoring method into Winter League. When i am playing friendlys i always now use PAR to 11.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Simon Crowther on June 10, 2010 at 12:52
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    There is a huge difference between div 1 and the pro game. anyone who watched some of the matches at the kent open where top div 1 players were matched against full time pros will appreciate that. PAR 11 was only introduced because the rallies in PAR 15 were deemed still too long for viewing of the pro game. the point was to make the sport more palatable and exciting for viewers, including non players of the sport. as such, PAR 11 isn’t really applicable in any sense to league squash – the rallies are significantly shorter and most of the spectators are players who want to see a bit of squash.

    Mark Lennox said:
    Sorry Jack, I couldn’t disagree more.

    1) That extra 5 or 10 minutes is the time at the end of the game that does the most for your fitness – cutting it shorter means you never reach that high anabolic rate (or whatever it’s called). Also, how many times have you heard people say, i was just starting to get into that when… well this would be happening a heck of a lot more

    2) There are always going to be slight miss-matches such as when the top team plays the bottom or indeed when any stronger team players a weaker team – and that doesn’t include the occasional nomination that might be slightly out of sync. Would you be happy trekking down to Rodmersham and getting a 15 minute bashing – I’d rather get a 20 or 25 minute game thanks!

    Whilst I appreciate that quite a few teams in Div 1 have pro at no.1, you cannot compare Div 1 to the professional game where tins are lower, players are full time pros and lets face it these guys know how to make a rally last forever. I would concede that it’s more so the guys at position 2,3,4 and 5 that miss out the most.

    The pros at No.1 are the only ones who don’t miss out. Think about it. They get to play what they are used to on the professional tour. Playing a shorter game means they stand less chance of getting an injury or being knackered for another paid match the next day. It also means they get back home earlier meaning again more rest for the next day’s matches, coaching or whatever. The last time I checked pros get paid per match not per time on court – it’s therefore no surprise the clubs that ‘tend’ to champion this ruling have retained pros (Dulwich, Bexley etc). I don’t blame them but I do think we should all be aware and make sure it doesn’t affect those of us who were perfectly happy before.

    Just my observations…

    Jack Breen said:
    Afternoon all.

    I am in favour of PAR to 11 scoring. I see it like this; If proffesional squash is played using PAR – 11 then surley “”division 1″” should follow it. I can understand frustrations with people and games being over to quickly but surley if your getting beat in a stupid time limit then some questions need to be asked. Are you in the right division? Is your nomination correct? Do you need to be on the court more than once a week? Of course there is going to be the odd game where someone is too strong for someone.

    If someone beats you in 20-25 mins using PAR to 11 using IMHO is only going to give you another 5-10mins on court at most?

    All 3 of my matches have been close to the hour mark. Not sure whether the warm courts have anything to do with that but i think we should def take this scoring method into Winter League. When i am playing friendlys i always now use PAR to 11.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Joe Magor on June 10, 2010 at 13:13
    Delete
    Seems to be that PAR 15 seems to be a good alternative.

    If Pro’s play PAR 11 with 17 inch tin then perhaps we should play PAR 15 with 19 inch tin?

    that would address the length of game issue, surely whilst still maintaining PAR scoring? no?

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Mark Lennox on June 10, 2010 at 13:20
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    I think that’s what lots of people are starting to think Joe. If you look at the poll that’s running; of the 64 people that have participated, only 23 have voted to keep PAR11.

    I’d be happy with PAR 15

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Clive London on June 11, 2010 at 8:51
    Delete
    Don’t soften your position Mark. PAR 15 is definitely the lesser of the two evils but I agree 100% with Simon’s point.

    The comebacks aspect is one of the major points in favour of HiHo. This issue has been laboured before but giving away the game is often the response to going several points down in PAR, particularly at the end of a game.

    Having served out 3 times on Tuesday and lost a point each time I’m even more convinced! Now many would no doubt say that this is an incentive to learn to serve properly, but cheap mistakes by your opponent on his serve hardly reflect well on your own skill. On the other hand if you’ve knackered him out and he makes a mistake, then fair do-s.

    I can understand why the likes of Mr Crane are so keen, but old man’s squash is often over quickly enough already! How short a game do you want?

    Thus far it’s probably been a worthwhile experiment (mainly due to the fact that being summer the rallies are much longer), but in cold conditions it’s likely to become a joke.

    Mark Lennox said:
    I think that’s what lots of people are starting to think Joe. If you look at the poll that’s running; of the 64 people that have participated, only 23 have voted to keep PAR11.

    I’d be happy with PAR 15

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Phill Crane on June 11, 2010 at 8:55
    Delete
    Currently 21 people (or 31%) want to keep HiHO, double that amount want to go forward with some form of PAR and 7 people aren’t bothered one way or the other.

    You must recognise that currently the vast majority of active members on the site want to change.

    P.S. Cilve – would it help if we re-introduced the two serve rule? ;>)

    Mark Lennox said:
    I think that’s what lots of people are starting to think Joe. If you look at the poll that’s running; of the 64 people that have participated, only 23 have voted to keep PAR11.

    I’d be happy with PAR 15

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Ian Armstrong on June 11, 2010 at 13:34
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    Would it be possible to trial PAR 15 from Div 2 down during the second half of the summer to see how that compares with HiHo?

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by John Creek on June 11, 2010 at 13:58
    Delete
    Down here in Div 5 we are wondering what all the fuss is about;) – especially as we understood that the only people with decision making power after the Summer trial would be the same Div 1 Captains who are currently playing it (not quite the 64 active voters mentioned earlier).

    In spite of Mr Lennox saying that there would be a riot if PAR 11 were introduced lower down, I think he would find a peaceful and lethargic bunch of players in the lower reaches, who might be ambivalent or mildly apathetic about being asked to trial, play or even vote on the idea.

  • Avatar John Archiver says:

    Reply by Phill Crane on June 15, 2010 at 12:24
    Delete
    Hi Dave,
    good to hear that you’re back and involved with team squash again.
    Just out of interest I looked at your scores for your last match and noticed that you won 11/2 11/2 11/5. At best that means your opponent got to serve twice in the first game, once in the second and possibly 3 times in the third.
    Was it PAR that was the problem or simply an opponent who you were far too good for on the night?
    If you’d have played HiHo the chances are he would have been beaten to love in the same amount of time. I doubt that it would have made for a better match.
    I’ve heard a few people say that ‘it’s not squash’ and ‘the rallies are too short’ – the answer has always been even when playing HiHo – if you get the ball back then you’ll make the rallies longer.
    Whose problem is it? – the person winning the points or the one who can’t make a return? Makes no difference PAR or HiHo.
    When I was younger I was always encouraged to think that long rallies are for friendlies and in matches you should just keep winning the next point. Why make yourself tired hitting a ball back to an opponent, surely the idea is to put it somewhere it can’t be returned from.
    Whichever version you play you need the players to be well matched to get a good run.

    ps might come down and watch some of the action at the Mote this evening.

    David Rannard said:
    I had my first experience of the PAR 11 scoring in a priory match last night. I’m with the majority and am not keen. It was all over far too quickly for my liking and as I heard the opposition say at one point during a match… “I’ve travelled all this way for this to be over so quickly!” It has to be PAR 15 or the good old scoring system to 9 IMHO.

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